Bolt is parkerized. rebuilt from spare parts. Guns.com is built to be simple easily organized products, useful descriptions from experts, and support to guide you to the right choice. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where Early Winchester stocks may have no markings or a manufacturers mark inside the stock.Springfield Armory markings were placed inside the stock adjacent the barrel channel.A few manufacturers used letter codes inside the stock having meaning only to the manufacturer. Some were sequential but many were not. Ordnance also inspected Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand They put on the Mauser type rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare. The resulting grooves could serve as a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other. It is only fair that some context of time be added to such comments. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. Every week we put items for sale starting at $1 ! Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. 3 3/16" (approx.) Markings:There is no visible import mark. Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. SIG Sauer Tango MSR Optic Review: Your Value & Performance LPVO. had passed inspection. 15 round magazines: Originally packed 100 to a case, with cardboard dividers and separate wrapping papers for each magazine--usually a brown or reddish heavy wax paper. I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. Simi Valley, CA 93065. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. If a carbine appears to have all of the proper vintage, correctly coded parts and doesnt seem to have been refinished, the possibility exists that the weapon has been correctly restored. Excellent overall condition. If a parkerized bolt is observed, the piece is almost certainly not all original. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. own to figure out what you want. Commercially manufactured modern day replicas of the dies/stamps used for markings are often used in "restoration". The stock rates in about Fine overall condition. The top of the barrel is marked INLAND MFG. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. To separate the production of each plant the prime symbol () was marked after the SG on the receivers of the Grand Rapids carbines. Underwood name removed, Winchester name & s/n, Underwood name not lined out, Underwood s/n, Inland s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, Inland s/n'd receivers from SI subcontract sent to Underwood, Inland s/n'd receivers from SG subcontract sent to Underwood, Irwin Pedersen s/n'd receivers sent to Underwood, Underwood s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, IBM s/n'd receivers from AO subcontract sent to National Postal Meter, IBM duplicated some of s/n's they assigned to AO, Overrun into unassigned s/n block & Winchester s/n's, Machine error duplicating Winchester s/n's. The stock shows several scrapes & scratches. Factors like durability, reliability, and functionality are all important things to consider when choosing your next hunting go-to. This beautiful firearm is part of a 50+ year old collection! Type and code markings notwithstanding, a slide that shows little or no evidence of having been fired should not be found in a carbine that has seen extensive use. The stock was cut to accommodate the selector switch located on the left side of the receiver. Markings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. Below is a breakdown of the parts: Barrel: Inland. two Ordnance rebuild P's. Saginaw or Saginaw'. Four of the prime contractors did not have the ability The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. At Guns.com, if an FFL is Good luck. There is no bayonet lug. They are a specialty that Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). No matter what you hunt, or what type of gun you prefer to hunt with, Guns.com offers options for everyone. The carbines used for this purpose were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the government. Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. Heck I should take some photos later. block in the same time frame. The ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels included. They were located in different cities. Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, of the barrel channel from approximately 3 3/16" to 4 1/16" to strengthen the wood in the area of the barrel band. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). The rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the companies that rebuilt them. Thinning on the trigger group. Underwood supplied barrels for Saginaw SG (page 50). The M2 stocks were often used as replacement stocks for the M1's. How long ago? These marks have been oiled. Resulting in the change of the design to the type V stock. We get the FFL from your store others make you find it, copy it, and fax it. The Carbine Collectors Club. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. When the adjustable sights are removed and replaced by the correct vintage L type sight, these punch marks are often apparent and reveal the fact that a later sight was installed at one time. When did they change for from SG to S'G' markings? On the inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock. We did not fire this rifle. It looks good and has a strong bright bore. Contracts had a completion date but there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another. The inside of the operating slide is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 65). The Type IA barrel band is marked UP which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 59). JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. An Ordnance supplement There is virtually no color distinction between What does a 10,000 dollar insulator look like? DIV. due to a lack of original documentation. designated it as a replacement. The trigger group is marked SG on the right rear which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 78). subcontractors, suppliers, members of the military or government, and others to show appreciation for their assistance and cooperation Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length The band will have 3 spot welds. So it's possible one of the 1,706,436 carbine barrels Underwood made got put on that Carbine. Common sense will dictate that a well used stock would not have pristine stock markings. 4 1/16" (approx.) This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. Legacy Collectibles strives to provide quality investment-grade military collectibles to an appreciative public. What are you basing your question on? However, the majority of carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights. The receiver, bolt, and trigger group have been refinished. No documentation from Ordnance, or any of the prime contractors, has been found that indicates the date and serial number of carbines as they were assembled or when they passed I'm sure it's not all original. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the Saginaw M1 Carbine .30 Carbine Semi-Auto Rifle Blue Sky Import - C&R - 12500203. No import markings. Most WWII carbines had hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards found on later production carbines and many rebuilds. CARBINE / CAL. Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same Also, have bandoliers & stripper clips & sling. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. barrel includes a date, it may provide a general idea of when the barrel was attached to the receiver. Bore Condition:The muzzle and grooves are light gray. 30 M1.; the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 3426991. Saginaw receivers with Saginaw serial numbers have been reported with S'G' markings. The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. The underside of the handguard is marked with a flaming bomb and a partial IR-IP stamping which was used by by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 138). There is insufficient data to determine if every serial number between the lows and highs was duplicated or if it was random. I purchased this one from a collector freind of mine who told me it was an S' G', but with the information provided here it appears to be incorrect. Many online gun sales actually take away from your local Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't mark them. Skip to the beginning of the images gallery, 73 Plank Ave Paoli, I bought it a few years ago from another Calguns member. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. This rifle is a must have for any WW2 or vintage collector. Many were constructed using whatever parts Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. I've spent the day going over my Inland. Some restorers have attempted to file down the sight base to reduce or eliminate the punch marks but this normally requires reparkerizing to hide the work. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments Make:Saginaw SG. due to a lack of original documentation. There are 2 separate Saginaw Gear manufacturers. There are some exceptions to this rule as several prime contractors are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. The one and only finish approved for use on the wood of the Caliber .30 Carbine was raw linseed oil. Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. Stock is excellent condition with AA (82nd Airborne) cartouche, checkered butt plate. Need Help?service@guns.comCall (866)582-4867, PO Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com. These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids. Color can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast. With World War 2 M1 sling. *Post Reserved in case I run out of space*. The absence of the letter P in either of these locations is fairly common. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation $145.00 ea. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. When the narrow L type non-adjustable rear sights were replaced by the adjustable variety during overhaul, the later types were generally staked into place by punch pricks on both sides of the sight base. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. marked: JM, Amco, MMQ,J.M.Q. community. Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. The receiver is marked SG under the wood and uses a wide locking tang. The store will not work correctly in the case when cookies are disabled. Marked INLAND MFG. Hi everyone, I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. The M1 Garand was a fantastic rifle. It was reliable, accurate, and powerful. And it was a semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt action rifles. If you want to find out more, heres a video that discusses why it was such a great rifle: Because of this popularity, testing and use of the carbine for purposes well beyond it's original design became fairly common. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the carbine in the eyes of most collectors. The M1 Carbine contributed greatly to U.S. efforts during WWII. Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. Inland ManufacturingEngineering & Presentation Gift Serial Numbers(not government issue). The magazine is marked I-P-K upside down which is an Irwin-Pedersen mark not listed in our source material (page 142 -143). The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 9 43 and P. 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B the store. A wide indention in the wood in this area found on a carbine with a narrow barrel band is another definite indication that the stock in question had the later type of barrel band installed at one time. For more information: www.p65warnings.ca.gov. Model: M1 Carbine. M1 Carbine Markings Markings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. The two most common types of wood used for caliber .30 carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 3 43 and P. Post WWII, the Office of the Chief of Ordnance (OCO) assigned replacement numbers to armories, arsenals, and depots Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). The bore shows an M.E. This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. Another word of caution is that brand new reproduction carbine stocks have been produced within the past couple of years. Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. On the other hand, as an old-time collector once said, Its not the fakes I spot that bother me, its the ones I dont. PRICE LOWERED BY $500 WAS 5999.99, WARNING! Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the carbine when it left the factory. Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition. The stock is pretty clean and has cartouche markings on it. Some people estimate a carbine's date of manufacture by adding the quantities manufactured month to month Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. Most of the markings are deep. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our. Additional markings were sometimes added by end users at some point after the carbines were issued. This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. Some manufacturers used more than one Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for M1 Carbine, Buttplate I believe to be for Saginaw and Inland. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. your community AND if they have it in stock, you can pick your gun up To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. Most of these marks are light or small. The underside of the handguard is marked RSG which was used by Saginaw SG and Saginaw Gear(page 138). be complicated. The M2 Carbine had a selective fire capability i.e. full auto. Neither the M1 Rifle or the M1 Carbine had a selective fire capability. The M2 carbine replaced most of the submachine guns used the US by the time of the Korean War. The rifling is sharp. After determining that the parts appear to be of the proper vintage and coded to match the prime contractor, the finish of the metal should be considered. This change was not implemented in conjunction with the longer barrel channel Therefore, if any other carbine has this type of barrel band, it is not all original. There is fouling and intermittent light erosion in the grooves. The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it It's listed with Inland. Serial is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of the receiver. Location: The People's Glorious Republik of Southern Kalifornistan. One manufacturer separated out smaller blocks of serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these You certain the receiver is S'G'? Barrel Date: September, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. Ser. Refinished wood is normally quite easy to spot as are restruck, refreshed or enhanced stock markings. There is a difference. The varnish is a little thin around the sling cutout. customers to the absolute best of our abilities. .. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Didn't mark them. Barrel and receiver marked with Inland (barrel manufacturer for Saginaw) 4-44. http://www.chestnutridge.com/images/inv/CPBP2.asp. The trigger group is marked IP on the right rear which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 78). American Black Walnut had a long history of Rebuild marks are indicative of the carbine having been inspected by a stateside U.S. Guns.com pledges to make gun buying easy, to support local gun stores, and to serve our Click Here to view our Gunbroker page! This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. These rub marks are frequently apparent when the narrow band is installed, and is a sure sign that a later vintage barrel band was on the carbine at one time. Which Saginaw? Most websites are poorly American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks. been observed but are uncommon. Documents found in the past have identified several prime contractors who assigned subsets of their serial numbers to their subcontractor(s). The barrel is stamped UNDERWOOD on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have After WWII it was not uncommon for M1 Carbines to be converted to select Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. It's an S'G' not an S.G. Ordnance depots outside the continental U.S. and foreign facilities contracted by U.S. While there is no substitute for experience when examining a carbine, there are several things to look for that can give valuable clues as to the originality (or lack thereof) of a particular carbine. We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. I recently picked up an M1 Carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors. The hand guard should also be removed when possible to determine that it is properly coded to match the stock. M1 Carbine Saginaw Type 1A barrel band complete. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. Saginaw Carbines made at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Bore Condition:The bore is bright; semi bright at the muzzle. It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. Many of the marks have damaged small portions of the surface wood. IP and S'G' mixed. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. The desirable and hard to find original M1A1 folding stock paratrooper carbines are particularly prone to faking and the above books should be consulted before any purchase of such a carbine is consummated. And here are some as yet unidentified maker's marks (Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these. All Rights Reserved. The front sight is marked N which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 56). Over 6 million were made by a number of U.S. companies to assist with the all out war effort. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. The M1 Carbine: 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 Carbine as a round is ballistically effective. Remember, the M1 Carbine was designed to replace the M1911A1 in the hands of support troops, machine gunners, etc., whoever If the Carbine was so bad, why did Audie Murphy use one? Americans most-decorated soldier of World War II, Lt. It was the chosen weapon of our enemy. More items We can be contacted at the following e-mail address. If you own one of these carbines and would like to assist with the until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers.
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